On this episode of The Roys Report, Julie explores these important questions with Mitch Little, whos not just an attorney for victims. So you caught them before that anything actually happened? Yeah, they eventually did. So when you have someone who is trusted, whos supposed to be an expert, you know, like a pastor, like a longtime senior pastor whos supposed to be a theological expert, and someone whos in authority like a senior pastor, people are willing to do things to satisfy that person that they would not otherwise do, even if those things seem harmful to another person. Just go to BuyACar123.com. They had these Global Leadership Summits. Thats a rhetorical question. And thats not what this is about. I think he lost it. He, Becky and their kids have been part of the fabric of BT for so long, it is Thats not to say there arent authentic people there. But it was after a period of I dont know the details, and I dont know how much youre at liberty to say them, but its my understanding he went away for a period of time to kind of reflect and assess how he was doing and how he was handling things. Yet Mitch isnt just the lawyer whos seen megachurches as an outsider bringing accountability. WebPete Briscoe is a podcaster and evangelical pastor. Thank you so much. They made a lot of friends a lot of money over the years selling books, promoting programs, platforming them at conferences, platforming them at the Global Leadership Summit. What eventually broke the culture of secrecy and protection? So thank you. Pete Briscoes father, Stuart Briscoe, who I loved dearly, hes not in good health, I wish he was, I wish he could hear this and Id wish him well. And Willow just, they got killed because they wouldnt respond and say the truth. Im Julie Roys. I know the owners Dan and Kurt Marquart personally, and I can say without reservation that they truly run their business with honesty, integrity and transparency. These are people that may be in the cubicle next to you at work, who have an acuity for blending in to normal life. I came out of Wheaton College, as I know a lot of kids do when youre in a Christian environment and maybe see some disillusioning things and I just, it was really a hard spiritual time for me. He was running and we were praying that he would surrender fully to God. Stuart Briscoe died on August 3 "of natural causes unexpectedly" according to a tweet from his son, Pete Briscoe. "For many of you, he was preacher, pastor, mentor or friend. And its designed to be acretive, right that they gain strength over time. But as you say its Gods grace that despite all that hes used these men to bless many, despite everything. I know from hearing from men, that that Bill abused men emotionally, spiritually while they were working there. Pete was preaching from Hebrews, and he was making the New Covenant come alive before all of us. I mean, it was a great time. I encourage you to start praying again and trust God to open doors for you in godly and meaningful fellowship. This is simply a place where I share the message of Gods unadulterated grace through my preaching sermons and bible teaching. In another area, it might be used to groom someone and use vulnerability as a mechanism to draw people into something that is corrupt. That is a very fair question. How did that all happen? And thankyou for all you do in the NAME of JESUS! Understanding & Overcoming Spiritual Abuse, Part II, Understanding & Overcoming Spiritual Abuse, Escaping & Healing from Abusive Churches, Part 2, https://world.wng.org/sites/default/files/issues/pdf/world_sep012018.pdf, https://www.billionbibles.com/voice-of-the-martyrs.html. How are you? So you can go to Amazon and enter in Boz Tchividjian and his book will pop up but you need to know what youre looking for because people who are sexual predators, they have an acuity for blending into society in ways that they dont stand out like this is not like, you know, the sexual predator in your church is not some, you know, grease ball sitting outside your kids ministry just kind of looking for a way to get at, like, thats our common image of what a sexual predator is. But now my faith in the whole institution is shattered. I would love to see Chicago experience revival. ) So, Willows pride did not allow them to see any flaws in their leadership, especially their premier leader. How do spot a safe pastorand can. They have to be theyre incredibly convincing. And that that was something that taught you an awful lot about how elder board should deal with sexual impropriety or sexual abuse within their own walls. And its so important, I think, for any of us who are doing any kind of ministry at all, if we get our identity wrapped up in what were doing, then what were doing is no longer ministry, its no longer service to the Lord. Theyve got a little bit of the guide part. WebPete Briscoe, Stuart and Jills youngest son, was a key contributor to the ministrys teaching team from 2003 to 2021. This was an excellent interview and elders need to read this interview. I have plenty of authentic friends just not at church. Board members selected in such a way are unlikely to honor their fiduciary duty ahead of their desire to please the board chairman or senior pastor. And if you think its not, you know, go and look in your church building right now, if youre quarantined under COVID, or youre not gathering. Vonda was at one time the director of Willow Creeks vocal ministry, and she was one of the first women to come forward and speak publicly about Bill Hybels alleged sexual misconduct. And if you are not willing to as an organism, or as an organization say, We messed up. The Elder Board has accepted Petes decision, and his resignation is effective March 31, 2019. Theres, theres an advocacy piece to lawyering that needs to be there a little bit, but it doesnt need to be pervasive. Hi Julie, my name is Teresa and I was wondering if Voice of the Martyr was a good place to donate. What I need most is what I dont have. Many more than even Vonda Dyer knew. WebBriscoe says that he wants Bent Tree to be a place where people can agree to disagree over this issue. Youre its just not its not a matter of if its a matter of when. Its M-I-L-G-R-A-M the Milgram experiment, but basically American researchers were trying to figure out after World War II, why so many in German society were willing to go along with the Nazis or go along with their leadership, do incalculably horrible things to people. Briscoe You can read about them at their website Teaching the Truth. And what lessons can we learn from Willow Creeks mistakes? And its like, now someone inside the tribe has said, Something is wrong here and it must be dealt with. And it took someone of Scot McKnights gravitas to be able to shift the discussion at Willow. Briscoe In fact, back in the late 80s, early 90s, we went to Willow Creek and we had a wonderful experience. Because they were required to move by unanimity. Get new articles and breaking news delivered to your inbox. You know, I believe in spiritual strongholds and things like that. There are therapy notes to support her story. And this is a huge problem in the Evangelical Church in the southern baptist church, I mean, just absolutely massive problem where so often the predators covered up instead of brought to justice. Yeah, apparently its not going to happen. So appreciate. But if you have a pastor with a glaring character flaw youre fooling yourself if you think youre gonna keep that character flaw in line with a pastor who doesnt put Jesus Christ first in his life, am I right? I dont know. WebPete Briscoe, Stuart and Jills youngest son, was a key contributor to the ministrys teaching team from 2003 to 2021. But you lose the guarding mechanism, which I think in todays in todays cultural moment, its probably the most important aspect of eldering. And he committed sex acts with her. That way, youll never miss an episode. Multiple services, being able to do it on cue, proves Hybels theatrical abilitiesI look back and feel sick, given all the details we now know from behind the scenes. Its scripturally rooted. Okay. Id like to share a few things as we navigate this loss together. I havent seen a lot of true owning, true repenting, true confessing. Inside their system, they need to be guarded, governed, guided. WebLearn More About Pete Today - Pete Briscoe God loves you to distraction, There is nothing you can do to make Him love them more or less, And, that Life with this Lover God is rich beyond description, regardless of your performance. And so when you know from the pulpit, that might be a strength. I dont think that he caused the elder board to resign. Really what it is, Julie, if we want to get down to it and go to spiritual or biblical terms, these are these are works of the flesh when were not led by the Spirit. WebPete Briscoe answers that question by pointing us to Paul as the perfect example of one who speaks with tender boldness. Okay. Well, and I hope there are Christian leaders listening to this who take note because is the time of just being silent and thinking that because youre silent, nothing will come back on you, thats past. If youre looking for a car I encourage you to visit my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. And he realized that he had missed an opportunity to share Christs love with this person, and he didnt even feel worthy to give this message tonight, you know, and he got teared up and, and Im watching this, you know, as a 20, early 20 something right? WebIt is with heavy hearts that the Elders of Bent Tree announce that Pete Briscoe has submitted his resignation as Senior Pastor. Fortunately, we have not had so much as one complaint about any one of our pastors or staff members. So as we part ways, let us make the departure sweet. Like so many of you, I love Pete. Well Mitch, one of the things Ive never discussed is that we used to attend Willow Creek. But before we begin, I just want to take a minute to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. And heres what we have to do as people leading churches, okay, you have to understand what the signs of grooming are so one of the things that I did that really helps me, my good friend, Boz Tchividjian, put out a book through his organization G.R.A.C.E. It manifested at the Human Resources level. So your pastor, he chose himself to step down, correct? My personal belief, not speaking on behalf of anyone else, my personal belief is that that structure is designed to fail, because elders cant elder in that structure. It involves a level of compartmentalization that is truly stunning. And if you dont have a character to lead, no manual is going to help you. Give a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month, and you will receive a copy of Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse by Dr. Lisa Oakley and Justin Humphreys. I was kind of thrust into the middle of it out of love for wanting to help my friends and man, that thing escalated pretty quickly. Pete reminds us that our goal is not to win arguments, but to win people. But so far, I havent seen that. Hi. Its the biblical admonition, you know, to hold a knife to your throat lest you desire the Kings delicacies. Its good to be visiting with you again. The church is nondenominational and has woman pastors and elders. I hope someday I can overcome this cynicism because I need Church as it should be. Great question. Pete Briscoe, our pastor at our church came out in support of the Dyers, which was bold, and it was brave. And thats one of the things that I just come back to is that the word hypocrisy in the Greek the word that comes from that means actor. I encourage leaders to research their selection criteria carefully before they recruit for their next vacancies. I agree, Pastor Bob. Yeah, I just saw you ran a story on MacDonalds massive mansion in Illinois being held in the name of Vanilla Bean LLC. Because we represent their interests. After a failed attempt to travel alone in his truck out west, he came to church with us that very day. Briscoe stepped down as senior pastor at the end of 2000 but remained involved in the church and active in overseas missions. I Judson is located just 36 miles outside Chicago on a beautiful 90 acre campus. Then, I did what all good Christian college students did at that time I acquired a boot-leg copy of the drama and listened to it several times on my own. Yeah, I think youre gonna be waiting a while. They know there would be swift and sure discipline, if not firing, even with one mistakedepending on the severity of the misbehavior. Heres my belief, Julie, I think the church at large, the big leaders in evangelicalism, we can name names if we want to, and Im sure that people have names on their mind when theyre hearing this, Why were they silent? To us, he was Stu, Dad and Poppa and we already miss him achingly." Well, lets talk a little bit about the leadership that protected him because I think that is the question that I keep hearing over and over from folks is, How do we prevent this from happening? Scott Dyer was the worship pastor at Bent Tree Bible fellowship. So, you know, Julie, its really its death by 1000 cuts. Absolutely. And so when these things happen, they cant just stay silent. He currently leads a multi-faceted media ministry called Telling the Truth which he shares with his parents Stuart and Jill Briscoe. And I think it wasnt a problem, Mitch, because everybody always agreed with whatever the senior pastor wanted. The thing that is so terrifying is that someone who has been a senior pastor in an organization like that is not beyond it. None at all. So grateful for those who did and Scot McKnight who came out with a just a powerful, I remember when his blog hit and he said, Every elder has to resign. And within what, wasnt it a week, all of them resigned. Like so many of you, I love Pete. (See page 54 and following) I think it took courage. You have to have a lead pastor who creates a strong culture of accountability. And while youre at it, wed really appreciate it if you help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review and then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Leave them alone. I can see the elders (more than half of which were women), and people in general saying, It was only a hug. I was just trying to build a relationship, or whatever you just go, But I see you for what you are and youre gonna have to go.. Gifted with wisdom, discernment, and a bit of English humor, the Briscoe's bring God's Word to life. I dont know the answer but rampant clergy abuse just took my discontentment to a whole new level. Manipulative theatrics. It is also the church in which Pete Briscoe, my former wonderful pastor, grew up in. Serving in the role of elder is a huge responsibility. You know, when you have somebody like Bryan Loritts, who when hes talking about why when he was at a former church, he didnt disclose to the church that they had a sexual predator among them for six months. At the same time. Not sad or contemplative, but agitated and very irritated. I think they can do it effectively. However, whenever he would do that quavering voice, etc., I would wonder how he could do that for all three identical services? If you want to know what grooming looks like in the context of church, every elder at a church of any size should read this book. Stuart Briscoe died on August 3 "of natural causes unexpectedly" according to a tweet from his son, Pete Briscoe. To us, he was Stu, Dad and Poppa and we already miss him achingly." This is the kind of thing that you would expect from someone whos cruel and not in relationship with Jesus. The other woman that Mitch represented will remain confidential but both these cases enabled Mitch to peek behind the curtain at Willow Creek and view upclose some of the dysfunctions that led to that scandal. Destroyed by a staff person is my understanding. For the next 90 minutes, Pete Briscoe enraptured us with his presentation of The Bema.. Literally thousands of people have come to know Jesus under Bill Hybels teaching and yet, he was morally bankrupt at the same time. It is not a program is not a set of services. Interestingly enough, during the interview, he seemed extremely angry and resentful. Yeah, my understanding of that of the history has come from interviewing witnesses, talking to people who have served in those roles and hearing their stories at Willow. And a lot of us who sat in the congregation and received from them were, you know, duped and we bought it. Hes a complex character. Id like to share a few things as we navigate this loss together. I learned that from Bill. Its my understanding that was a watershed moment. He gave me a few new friends here and there, people to pray with, to share with, to be coworkers in some small ministry, etc. Let me give you some examples. And it had all of these allies not just in the media, but among the angelical industrial complex, other megachurch pastors, everything. If you have six members of the Board of eight, lets just say its eight or 10. that keeps the honest person honest. Please note, our website requires JavaScript to be supported. The outside investigation report said something along the lines of, Bill Hybels hundreds or thousands of emails with this woman were, not available. Well, as it turns out my understanding from talking to witnesses, those emails were actually destroyed. This person or these people were hurt as a result, you have a pride problem. The news of Petes resignation landed heavy on my heart. Ive even friended a few. :), I would strongly urge you to research Voice of the Martyrs. Let the Briscoes help you experience Life in all its fullness! That goes to the guarding role that Attorney Mitch shared. I am thrilled to be here. You know, people like Dee Parsons, Julie Anne Smith, Julia Dahl, and people who I knew would not stop talking about it and would not stop talking about it for months. Im wary of the theatrical, evangelical stars that are so prevalent now. We bought the routine and its shocking. It took a variety of forms. I just want to say this was not someone who acted on any behavior at our church, but had someone who was in the process of grooming someone else. Its something like Child Protection Policies. And today Im excited to be speaking with Mitch Little. So many people are looking the other way. Jill and Stuart came to the States from England. You know, I think, Julie, the other thing that was really whacked out about Willows elder board, and I didnt find this out until very late in the representation was they operated by design out of unanimity. it is. Tell us what you learned through you know, bringing this person to light, confronting him and dealing with the entire situation that we can learn from as a church. Its biblical. Hes also the chairman of the elder board at a multisite megachurch in Dallas, Texas. Very few. He has been married to Jill for more than 59 years and has three children and 13 grandchildren. Pete Briscoe, our pastor at our church came out in support of the Dyers, which was bold, and it was brave. Jill and Stuart came to the States from England. And there was also a service at WC where the board interviewed him and was he was questioned about an affair. So a young person in our high school ministry. The Elder Board has accepted Petes decision, and his resignation is effective March 31, 2019. We needed to go to the hills and fight as guerillas, you know, what is guerrilla warfare? What I saw happen at Willow is, the board as a unit was willing to dissemble in the amount necessary to preserve the organization. But when we look at it from some practical ways that God used people to undo this, explain what you see as being the key forces. The thief knows how to how to get through that lock, right? Yes, in the course of representing these women, it became obvious that this was not what Ill call an echelon or tier leadership problem, just at Bill Hybels level. Ive asked that question many times. And I had a wonderful experience. And yet youre still in a megachurch, multi-site church. He even cites a conversation with Darrell Bock, a member who disagrees with the elders but who also says it is not an issue worth dividing over. And theyre born knowing how to do that. The Elder Board has accepted Petes decision, and his resignation is effective March 31, 2019. The immense audio, video, and written teaching resources on our website help people who are seeking answers about God to know Christ and experience Life in all its fullness. And I think there was, but I think that theres a spiritual stronghold around celebrity culture within evangelicalism writ large. Youve youve created a fiction when you organize church, what is a church organization but a legal fiction, right? Maybe some of your listeners are familiar with that you can go on YouTube and and see what thats all about. Gifted with wisdom, discernment, and a bit of English humor, the Briscoe's bring God's Word to life. Its so HARD today to know who to donate to. So Mitch, thank you so much for taking the time to join me today. And you have to, there must be assiduous accountability going on in the life of someone who has the big radio show has the big platform, his platform at conferences and large organizations, because the temptations are greater. Pete grew up in a home with intelligent and committed parents: both Pete reminds us that our goal is not to win arguments, but to win people. Funny, whenever I would watch Bill Hybels preach online or speak at the GLS, and he would go into that quavering voice, tears-in-his-eyes, emotional mode, Id stop listening. I attended Willow for seven years. And so when you see behaviors that look like grooming, you know, John Calvin, Im not a Calvinist. You can choose from more than 60 majors and learn in a Christian environment known for its spiritual values, leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Mitch has seen church governance from both the inside and the outside. Its How do we protect the entity and the entity as expressed through the person of Bill Hybels? Once you make that decision that youre willing to protect the entity or the person in charge of the entity to the detriment of members of the body or members of the staff, youve made some poor choices that are going to have consequences. I think the larger the platform, the more rigorous the accountability needs to be. I think ultimately, we are still kind of under the inertia of a culture that was fomented by Pete Briscoe, which was a culture of goodness, a culture of grace and its still carrying forward under that momentum. I know for a fact that his article was circulated among the staff at Willow, and they crossed the Rubicon of credulity. But essentially, it was the board being asked to deal with matters of policy and then all matters of implementation really get left to the vocational staff in the church. And this is whats so difficult. When you have a woman who says I was molested by a staff member, or you have a staff member who says, Bill Hybels just threw a punch at me, or dog cuts me up and down the hallway, those arent matters of policy, Julie. Yet, Scripture and to how to teach it became new and deep and exciting every week as I listened to Pete in the short three years I have been at Bent Tree. Heres my belief, Julie, I think the church at large, the big leaders in evangelicalism, we can name names if we want to, and Im sure that people have names on their mind when theyre hearing this, Why were they silent? The fact that, I dont know. That night we had a guest speaker come in for a special presentation. I had no idea what to expect as this lone man stood on the stage. He has been married to Jill for more than 59 years and has three children and 13 grandchildren. Powerful ministry at some points. Why did so many look the other way for so long? https://www.billionbibles.com/voice-of-the-martyrs.html. He even cites a conversation with Darrell Bock, a member who disagrees with the elders but who also says it is not an issue worth dividing over. Pete Briscoe, our pastor at our church came out in support of the Dyers, which was bold, and it was brave. A man who "dedicated his life to sharing Gods Word with the world" has died at the age of 91. This is a person who is pushing a boundary because they want to do something bad. About Stuart and Jill Briscoe As I look back on my own four years on staff, Im thankful for the teaching and leadership that Pete Briscoe has brought to Bent Tree, and I know that so many of us have been impacted by his attention to the Lord and quick obedience to however God leads him. And I realized that as we were discussing this, that there might be some people who have heard about what happened at Willow Creek, but somewhat superficially, through the headlines and dont really know beneath the surface. With distinctly different teaching styles, you'll be moved by the emotional appeal of Jill and the compelling logic of Stuart, as they boldly proclaim God's sovereignty, grace, and love. But what happens when there is a sheep within the flock who needs to be defended? , because everybody always agreed with whatever the senior pastor at our church came out in support of Dyers! Complaint about any one of the Martyr was a key contributor to the States from England the. Of accountability they wouldnt respond and say the Truth rigorous the accountability needs to be speaking with Mitch.. For more than 59 years and has three children and 13 grandchildren chairman of Board... Truck out west, he was preacher, pastor, mentor or friend we were that... Look like grooming, you know, Julie explores these important questions Mitch... And see what thats all about, spiritually while they were working there a character to lead no. Going to help you experience life in all its fullness ), I strongly! 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In support of the Dyers, which was bold, and it was brave say, we have had... Telling the Truth good place to donate to Mitch shared, our pastor at our church came in... Prevalent now has accepted Petes decision, and his resignation is effective March 31 2019! Very irritated is so terrifying is that someone who has been married to Jill for more than years. There a Little bit, but agitated and very irritated should be it took courage recruit their., governed, guided have plenty of authentic friends just not at church took someone of Scot McKnights to. The ministrys teaching team from 2003 to 2021 Bill abused men emotionally, spiritually while were... Let us make the departure sweet in a megachurch, multi-site church of Vanilla Bean LLC 's to! Have to have a lead pastor who creates a strong culture of secrecy protection! Has died at the end of 2000 but remained involved in the role of Elder is a sheep the. 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